70 billion bail out

[carefree]

how do you all feel on this one then lads? 70 billion bail out? i think it's wrong, after all its our tax money that will be given to a failing euro state and we dont get a say. dont get me wrong as i was born in fulham to irish parents and have a very large irish family living in eire, but i have spent my whole life in england and paid taxes on everything from wages to petrol. to see our country (eng) go though a tough time, which will affect our children with education and public service cuts etc, only to see us give much needed tax payers (our) money on a lengthy loan that may never get paid back when we need it ourselves.charity starts at home right?

[bluestar]

Charity begins at home Al so I have always thought that we need to sort ourselves out first - that said I would prefer to be offering help to a near neighbour, and from listening to the ongoing debate and from reading some of the reports it appears that Ireland are one of or biggest customers when it comes to exports so it makes sense to assist.

I think our contribution is goimg to be £7.5 billion, which ain't small potatoes! What I am ****ed of about though is that this whole sags iis likely to mask something that is going through at the moment in this country, I think the real issue we have is the decision by this government to base future pension increases on the CPI rather than the RPI - their basis for this is that pensioners dont have to cope with many of the housing costs associated with RPI - like mortages - however in real terms this decision will actually mean a cut to their annual incomes - we should be putting our young, sick and old first but increasingly seem to have lost our way - God help our kids in the future.

[Slim Bratts]

I'm crap at politics can't Bono help them out?

It's like a mate asking to borrow £20 at the end of the month when you've got no money yourself. They made the choice to go with the euro so in one sense it's a case of you've made your bed so lie in it and in the other, they are trading partners and if it gets even worse for them it could get even worse for us....not a very healthy situation whichever way you look at it.

[Admin]

They joined the Euro fully aware that they would have less control over their own fiscal policy (which is one of the reasons that the UK didn't join the Euro too).

Irrespective of my where my father or mother comes/came from, I don't think that we should be bailing anyone out; unless we are going to charge a nice rate of interest on the money that we lend to them.

Sorry my Irish cousins!

[carefree]

i get what your saying mick, but its kinda like this really for me, i had a window/glass business a number of years ago, which i had to close before i went bankrupt, this was due to my best trading customers not paying what they owed me. sometimes you have to cuts your loses and stay afloat yourself. i love eire and visit often, i even have a house near limerick, but our country is in a mess and i feel as its our tax money we should at the very least get a say or even a vote to allow or dis allow any bail out. bit like the misses raiding my bank account to give to her sister without asking me first.

the interest is set at 8.9% i believe raph, but means nothing if you aint got it to give back.

[Harbs]

What I cant understand is, if in such a short period of time we were able to get our selves into such a strong position financially to be able to lend 7 or 10 bill to another country and risk losing the lot.
why have we had such drastic cuts and why if we are doing so well has the british tax paying public not received something back like a 30p or even 3p cut in petrol prices etc?! It seems the only time we hear about our money is when it runs out or the government want to spend more of it!!

[Harbs]

ooook, after doing a little research, it seems that we currently have 90 Billion tied up in Ireland, so if the Irish economy goes bust and the banks cave then we lose the 90 billion they owe us already.
So it seems that a small 10% investment into their economy is actually to save us from loosing the whole lot in the long run.
Mind you it strikes me as a crazy initial long term investment ! and Ireland pretty much have the UK by the short and curlies because if this 10 billion wilts away and they say they need another boost you can bet that the UK will again be the ones to offer the money while we all pay more taxes!

[Back of the Net]

Hold on lads, the UK Government borrows £10 billion EVERY single month - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11783261

So I dont think we should moan about the Irish accepting a £7.5 billion loan from the UK really? They need it to survive at the minute as their property and financial sectors have imploded but they have very healthy import and export figures so they will recover...
It's all a money merry-go-round, the UK borrows Billions every year to ensure it survives, what if the countries the UK borrows from all took the same attitude and said 'NO we're in a bit of bother this end too sunshine'??? it would be a meltdown..
The media hype it all up to distract from the facts that the UK are in more debt that most EU states!!! aside from Greece/Portugal etc of course!

Using Slim Bratts termanology:
It would be like saying to your mate 'I'm not lending anyone anymore money until my finances are a bit healthier, oh and you couldn't lend me £20 could you as I'm a bit skint myself and got a few debts to pay?'

[Harbs]

well the media high light it we can only go by what were told :)

[Back of the Net]

Harbs, I take it you're joking mate?

If you live by what you're told in the media then you'll believe X-Factor and Big Brother are the bench-mark for society in the UK.....
Actually, I think you're on to something there mate hahahaha!

Seriously though, I found it funny how easily people are stirred into hatred of others by the media, a few comments on how we're lending money to other nations whilst we're all struggling oursleves and everyone jumps on the wagon, when on closer inspection the UK is actually getting huge handouts every month that are bigger and we're all ignoring it in favour of sneering at another nation for daring to accept a similar thing hahaha, the irony.....

[Ross]

Let's face it, the media is a powerful weapon. People are easily led by what they say.
I can't say I have a massive knowledge of politics, and most of what I do know is from what I read in the papers etc but ultimately the loan to Ireland can only be a good thing surely? Yes, our finances are in a **** state too, and yes, I'm gonna have a dent in my pocket to pay for it, but aren't the Irish one of the biggest importers of British goods etc?

[bluestar]

must be that Nottingham air mate, or an age thing - already made that point re the imports

[carefree]

i dont have a problem lending a mate £20 as long as he asks before dipping my wallet.

[Ross]

Knew I'd read it somewhere :D

[Admin]

I never thought we'd be debating macroeconomics on PST, what an educated bunch you are! Ireland imports less than half of what the US receive from us; even less than the Netherlands in fact. Ireland comes fifth.

Our biggest "export" is financial services, as after New York, London is the biggest exchange in the world. Essentially, we are the gateway into Europe and act as the world's foreign exchange.

We are already in deficit with our balance of payments on the goods side anyway, so if Ireland were to stop buying our goods, it wouldn't make a massive difference; especially since last year they imported around 18% less than the year before anyway.

I guess the main problem (contradicting what I said in an earlier post) is that the Euro Zone as a whole imports half of our goods and services. If Ireland went to the wall, then I am sure that other countries like Greece, Portugal and Spain may follow suit. If (heavens forbid) Germany, Netherlands and France did the same, we'd be up **** street!

Therefore thinking logically, the UK government aren't helping Ireland to the sake of helping Ireland, I think that they're helping Ireland to help Europe as a whole. After all, the UK is a member of Europe with EVERYTHING apart from the Euro currency, so if a fellow EU country is in need, then we are obliged to help them.

[bluestar]

I believe at the end of the day it will be the Germans who hold all the aces - read this and you begin to get the picture for Eurpoe in the future - increasingly us Brits will be seen as an irrelevance

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/nov/22/germany-ireland-eurozone-bailout-crisis

[Admin]

I agree Mick. The Germans had hyperinflation after the World War and their economy went to durchfall. As a result, they had to rebuild it in a more efficient and robust model. The result? One of the strongest economies in the world.

[Glasgow Rangers Champions]

My opinion on this is that Ireland for many a year has tried to stand on its own 2 feet and never wanted to be part of the UK...... they only want to be our neighbours now because they are in a **** state of affairs... im sorry Sean buddy but who the hell come to our need when we were/still are in trouble!!! We as a country have lost alot and as a country are digging ourselves out..
Ireland have long stated they wanted to govern their own country and decided to go with Euro and now its all starting to backfire!! I for 1 dont mind helping people out but as Al stated sometime you must cut your losses and we all want to look after number 1... which is ourselves and im sick to death of my taxes going up, petrol going up, vat going up inflation going up and my wages staying the same meaning im now starting to lose out!! which means my kids are losing out!!!

[Slim Bratts]

Their football leagues are thriving as well... may be we should have let the Germans win the war (though they kinda did anyway).

Looking at it all to be fair Ireland did wanna try and sort it out themselves but had to admit they needed help and it looks like we need to help them to try and prevent things potentially getting even worse for ourselves.

[carefree]

so where is this 7.5 billion coming from? the public sector budget? the health service budget? the education budget, local council budgets? ermm no. it will be added to fuel, heating, food etc etc. how can things possibly get worse? i know lets give terror suspects millions as well. i ve always been anti euro and they as killing us with their rulings and are at fault for eire collapse, im earning the same as i got 5 years ago but have to do extra hours to get that. as jock says its our families that will suffer, budget christmas this year for neally all of us and many to come. rant over lol.

[Back of the Net]

Good grief, Jock and Al are you having a laugh? perhaps not with your political allegiances creeping in, are we 1 step away from saying the IRA will be getting the money from your kids mouths etc?

Jock - look after number 1 yeah? So if everyone did that where do you think the UK would borrow it's £10BILLION every single month from?
If other countries did what you are suggesting the UK do, then the UK would be screwed within weeks, £10billion a month we borrow from others mate and you are moaning about the UK offering to help a smaller nation out with £7.5billion... I would f*cking well love to see every other country to tell the UK to get lost as we're looking after ourselves, You think it's bad now? If that happened we'd be 3rd world status.. You borrow that amount monthly from others then you get yourself into this position of HAVING to help others out when they need it - end off....

Where does the UK and the US get their oil (and therefore most of it's economy) from?
Saudia Arabia and the Middle East, are you telling me those lot are not the most corrupt lot in the world and full of terrorists, but does it stop the UK trading and lending from/to them? no, the UK borrows/loans ANTHING from and too ANYONE!

And dont forget the UK offered this money to Ireland, the UK borrows more than this amount every single month, so you lend it to Ireland but you're borowing more monthly elsewhere. So you're happy to ignore the fact that other states are bailing you out every month for more than this amount in favour of slating a smaller nation for doing the same thing on a muh smaller scale? bit hypocritical wouldn't you say?

You pay so much tax etc etc because the BRITISH government have f*cked it all up and borrowed too much whilst the public run up consumer debt like it's nothing, I find it really telling how individuals will happily look away from their own government and public in favour of pointing the finger at others whose debt and borrowing etc is far far less than there own.
It's not Irelands fault we're f*cked, it's Britians fault and the British government...

If they didn't offer this money to Ireland then Germany etc (the Euro powerhouse) would all rightly tell the UK to take a running jump when they come begging like they do every single month....
Come on boys see the bigger picture, if you want to point fingers get down to 10 downing street and leave your political views on Ireland at the door, your debt/taxes etc is a British problem and a problem that was made here, not in Ireland or anywhere else, Ireland do want to be in the Euro so what, a small loan will bail them out, if you say no to it then the back-lash would cripple the UK even further, you can't borrow billions from others monthly but then say no to a trading partner when they need it.

Al Ireland are not 'tipping' your wallet, the UK is, they got us into this mess and have bound us to these loans/debts etc, we pay terrorists in the middle east and the US many more billions than the small fry we're looking at with Ireland, if you want to find real crooks look no further than the White House and 10 Downing Street!

Who'd have thought us lot would be debating politics on PST hahaha, love it

[Glasgow Rangers Champions]

Sean i think your missing the point!!!
As a country in debt and struggiling ourselves how can we afford to keep on bailing out other countries!!! As Al said Charity must start at home!!
Oh and how can you blame Britian for Ireland being in trouble??? They are not part of the UK remember!!

But saying that it does not mean i dont want us to help other nations but i do think we need to get our own back yard in order before we start helping lay some nice new grass on someone elses lol!!

[Back of the Net]

Jock - me missing the point? hahaha wakey wakey mate..
The UK can't afford to bail others out we all know that, But it HAS too because it borrows billions every month from others to survive, are you not getting that bit mate?

Do you honestly think other states will lend billions to the UK if the UK says it's not going to do the same for other trading nations?
It's simple economics Jock, come on mate, typical HUN hahaha the UK are well up sh*t creek and they are paying the price like everyone else, other nations HAVE to lend £10BILLION a month to the UK otherwise it all falls down, do you think they enjoy having the UK begging that amount from them monthly and having to lend it to them? how do you think they feel when they're in debt also, how hypocritcal can you be?

And where did I say the UK are to blame for Ireland being in touble, am I missing something, the Irish problem is theirs, they are borrowing to sort it just like the UK do to sort their own (MUCH BIGGER) problem out, whats your point there? everyone is up sh*t creek and they're all borrowing including the UK on a massive scale!

If the UK shut up shop and dont lend to trading partners when in need then it's the UK that will suffer, as nobody will lend to them and we need £10 Billion a month just to service our debt, the UK have put us all into a position where we cant say no....

[Glasgow Rangers Champions]

Good grief, Jock and Al are you having a laugh? perhaps not with your political allegiances creeping in, are we 1 step away from saying the IRA will be getting the money from your kids mouths etc?

Jock - look after number 1 yeah? So if everyone did that where do you think the UK would borrow it's £10BILLION every single month from?
If other countries did what you are suggesting the UK do, then the UK would be screwed within weeks, £10billion a month we borrow from others mate and you are moaning about the UK offering to help a smaller nation out with £7.5billion... I would f*cking well love to see every other country to tell the UK to get lost as we're looking after ourselves, You think it's bad now? If that happened we'd be 3rd world status.. You borrow that amount monthly from others then you get yourself into this position of HAVING to help others out when they need it - end off....

Where does the UK and the US get their oil (and therefore most of it's economy) from?
Saudia Arabia and the Middle East, are you telling me those lot are not the most corrupt lot in the world and full of terrorists, but does it stop the UK trading and lending from/to them? no, the UK borrows/loans ANTHING from and too ANYONE!

And dont forget the UK offered this money to Ireland, the UK borrows more than this amount every single month, so you lend it to Ireland but you're borowing more monthly elsewhere. So you're happy to ignore the fact that other states are bailing you out every month for more than this amount in favour of slating a smaller nation for doing the same thing on a muh smaller scale? bit hypocritical wouldn't you say?

You pay so much tax etc etc because the BRITISH government have f*cked it all up and borrowed too much whilst the public run up consumer debt like it's nothing, I find it really telling how individuals will happily look away from their own government and public in favour of pointing the finger at others whose debt and borrowing etc is far far less than there own.
It's not Irelands fault we're f*cked, it's Britians fault and the British government...

If they didn't offer this money to Ireland then Germany etc (the Euro powerhouse) would all rightly tell the UK to take a running jump when they come begging like they do every single month....
Come on boys see the bigger picture, if you want to point fingers get down to 10 downing street and leave your political views on Ireland at the door, your debt/taxes etc is a British problem and a problem that was made here, not in Ireland or anywhere else, Ireland do want to be in the Euro so what, a small loan will bail them out, if you say no to it then the back-lash would cripple the UK even further, you can't borrow billions from others monthly but then say no to a trading partner when they need it.

Al Ireland are not 'tipping' your wallet, the UK is, they got us into this mess and have bound us to these loans/debts etc, we pay terrorists in the middle east and the US many more billions than the small fry we're looking at with Ireland, if you want to find real crooks look no further than the White House and 10 Downing Street!

Who'd have thought us lot would be debating politics on PST hahaha, love it


Sean that clearly highlights you saying Britian is to blame for Irelands debt!!!

anyway this is boring me now lol you keep repeating what you have alreday said Hammil over and over again and now your being a bigot!!! :scr:

[Harbs]

Sean, just out of curiousity your clearly anti media which is the main source of information for a majority of the british public so what secret papers are you privi to that provides you all your accurate information?
Im struggling to find anything anywhere that says the british government borrows 10 billion a month
are you a secret agent leaking info to the bright mind of PST :)

[Admin]

As much as it pains me to say, Sean is right.

It's called "Balance of Payments" and every country owes a debt to each other, even the richest of countries. It's the way of the world unfortunately!

At least our current government want to do something about the deficit.

If you want to blame someone, blame the Labour government that did such wise things as sell of a huge amount of our gold reserves for LESS THAN A QUARTER of what it is now worth!

[carefree]

lets get it right, it is called business! every business owes another business money, but when that business is broke and cant pay for what it has already had and wants more stock then would a business continue to keep giving produce only with a promise to pay back one day?
im only an ex council kid who knows very little about politics, but im wise enough to know when im getting shafted.

[Admin]

I am just naive Al and hoping that we will be getting something out of the bargain.

As for taxes - WTF - I had to pay £1.21 a litre for unleaded yesterday!

[Back of the Net]

brilliant Harbs... I'm not anti media as such, just anti stupid media which stir racial hatred and leave out all the facts, but it's the public that believe it and join in that are to blame really, the nation believes Simon Cowell walks on water for gods sake - enough said...
this is hardly secret media is it mate, the BBC - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11783261 scan it, we (the UK) borrow £10billion a month to service our debt.

Harley you are a clown hahaha mate my sentence is say we as in the UK, I live here so when I say we I mean the UK.
It's not Irelands fault we're (the UK) f*cked, it's Britians fault and the British government...
This means I'm saying that it's not Irelands fault the UK is F*cked, it's our own governments fault.
You twist it around because you automatically assume everyone is as narrow minded as the HUN hahaha... just kidding mate, but you get my point now I've explained I hope...
Irelands problems are their own, they borrow to solve them, just like we the UK do too, so dont moan about it when the UK does the same yeah?

[Back of the Net]

lets get it right, it is called business! every business owes another business money, but when that business is broke and cant pay for what it has already had and wants more stock then would a business continue to keep giving produce only with a promise to pay back one day?
im only an ex council kid who knows very little about politics, but im wise enough to know when im getting shafted.

errrr if that business was borrowing every month from the same people that wanted a loan as a one off, then yeah it would have to lend otherwise it'll soon see nobody will lend them anything anymore and they'll be out of business because their own debts would cripple them.....
Al you're right you are being shafted, but it's by the British Govenment and they have to lend others money no because they borrow so much themselves, the UK have f*cked it up and they cant get out of it, sadly they have to lend money otherwise they cant borrow it and if they cant borrow we all go under....
If you want out of it then the only way is to live off the land and own nothing, they cant take nothing from you that way, it's the hard working that will have to pay us out of this mess they've got us in ...

[Glasgow Rangers Champions]

Ohh so now you refer yerself as being from the Uk cause only last month im sure we had a long disscussion regarding your aliegance as did you not say you classed yer self as a Rep of Ireland man!!!
Thats were my confusion was ya see... but i understand now... However im even more confused what country you now class your self as 1 minute your born in Northen Ireland UK and say you dont support them because your catholic so support Rep of Ireland and your aliegance is with them and now you are from the Uk..... typical twisted tims!! :D

[Back of the Net]

hahaha not long before your real colours show eh Shaun......
I support ROI and would class that as home, but I live here and work here after growing up here, so when I say 'we' in regards economic crisis I mean the UK as I'm part of it (like it or not), I'm part of the mess of this country and I have to accept it and pay my taxes which I've done a hell of a lot off over the last 20 yrs let me tell you!
As a hun it's understandable that you're confused, they only teach hatred of anything not Hun, it's ok mate the rest of the world understand and generally feel sorry for you, but try to be a bit more open minded and accepting mate :) :)

[carefree]

you should join paliment botn as it doesnt matter what any one says you will disagree with most of it or pick between the line and pull it to pieces. i kind of expected you to disagree with you own comments too hahaha.

[Back of the Net]

hahaha very good Al, I just didn't agree with you and Harley being lead by the media into slightly racist thoughts on this topic, the media do it a lot and so many people blindly believe them whilst ignoring a lot of the facts behind it that's all, my point remained the same throughout, I just had to repeat it a few times to get it through?
I agree with a lot of stuff on here mate, keep up the good work at Hunts, it's good to read your updates - good luck with Macca as No2 also, I always thought he talked a load of No 2 myself so he is well qualified hahaha.. sorry Macca couldn't resist!

[carefree]

p.s both my parents are from eire, limerick and kerry, born and raised. it is my ancesteral home, newcastle west, limerick is a place i love and visit often, but im an englishman born in london. this is my home. we would servive without the eu. we did for 100's of years. if it meant me becoming a farmer and starting again, then i would do it. it isnt the uk that f***ed us or the current goverment but pass goverments who decide to make us an eu state (bunch of door handles) its was also the eu/french/belgiums and the stinking euro.
ita a debate sean so its not personal, macca is numba 1 as reserve booss starting at xmas, he will spend up to then with the current manager.

[Back of the Net]

nothing wrong with being patriotic Al mate... but I think you'll find the UK would not survive without the EU, Germany etc loan the UK billions a month, without it we'd be screwed big time... past history the UK was THE super power of the world as it conquered everyone and everything, but those days are long gone mate, the UK is the doormatt to the USA into Europe, past governments of the UK ballsed it all up for us, but the UK voted em in I dont think you can just say it's everyone elses fault and we're nothing to do with it and we're not lending you any money etc.... we the UK are not that squeaky clean in this mess and it is a mess.
dont get me wrong, you think I enjoy being fleeced for tax/fuel/food/kids clothing etc etc whilst people lap it up on the dole or come in from abroad etc - no chance, it pi**es me off royally, but we (the UK government) let it happen because they're up to their grubby little necks in side deals with everyone.

I'm with you, I'd work the land or whatever if it meant sorting it, but sadly those in power with the money will carry on regardless!!
I know it aint personal mate, Harley and me were talking this morning about it being great to have a good debate on here again...

good luck over the Xmas period with Hunts, always a tough time to field your 1st choice 11.

[bluestar]

It is a slow day in a damp little Irish town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.
On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.
The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.
The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.
The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.
The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub.
The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.
The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.
The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveler will not suspect anything.
At that moment the traveler comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.
No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more-optimism.

And that is how the bailout package works.

[Harbs]

so based on that who is infact the rich german?

[Admin]

Mick, I love the simplicity of your explanation! Harbs, the rich German represents the EU members.

[Harbs]

isss it? issssssit?
said like Ross from friends!